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Thursday, March 18, 2010

മെത്രാനും കൂട്ടാളികളും കളിക്കുന്നത് നാറുന്ന രാഷ്ട്രീയം

കല്‍ദായവല്‍ക്കരണത്തിന്റെ പേരില്‍ മെത്രാനും കൂട്ടാളികളും അമേരിക്കന്‍ സീറോ മലബാര്‍ ഇടവകകളില്‍ കളിക്കുന്നത് വെറും നാറുന്ന രാഷ്ട്രീയം മാത്രമാണ്.
ചിക്കാഗോയില്‍ മാര്‍ അങ്ങാടിയത്തിന്റെ മേലധ്യക്ഷതയില്‍ ഒരു സീറോ മലബാര്‍ രൂപത ഉണ്ടാകുന്നതുവരെ അസൂയാവഹമായ ഒരുമയിലും സ്നേഹത്തിലും കഴിഞ്ഞിരുന്ന ഒരു സമൂഹമാണ് നമ്മള്‍. മാര്‍ത്തോമ കത്തോലിക്കരായ നമ്മളും, ക്നാനായ കത്തോലിക്കരും, ലത്തീന്‍ കത്തോലിക്കരും, മലങ്കര കത്തോലിക്കരും വരെ ഒരേ കൂടാരത്തില്‍ ആരാധന കര്‍മ്മങ്ങളില്‍ പങ്കുകൊണ്ടിരുന്ന ഒരു കാലമുണ്ടായിരുന്നു. ഇതില്‍ അസൂയ കൊണ്ടിട്ടാകാം ദൈവമോ സാത്താനോ അങ്ങടിയത്തിനെ മെത്രാന്‍ വേഷത്തില്‍ നമ്മുടെ ഇടയിലെയ്ക്കയച്ചത്.

ആദ്യം ചിക്കാഗോയിലും തുടര്‍ന്നു മറ്റ് അമേരിക്കന്‍ നഗരങ്ങളിലും സീറോ മലബാര്‍ സമൂഹങ്ങള്‍ സ്വന്തം ദേവാലയങ്ങള്‍ വാങ്ങാന്‍ തുടങ്ങിയതോടെയാണ് അങ്ങടിയത്തിന്റെ തനി നിറം ആളുകള്‍ കാണാന്‍ തുടങ്ങിയത്. ചൊറിഞ്ഞു ചൊറിഞ്ഞു ചിരങ്ങുണ്ടാക്കുകയെന്നു കാരണവന്മാര്‍ പറഞ്ഞു കേട്ടിട്ടുണ്ട്. ബിഷപ്പ് അങ്ങാടിയത്തിന്റെ പരിഷ്കാരങ്ങളും അവ സമൂഹത്തില്‍ സൃഷ്ടിച്ചിട്ടുള്ള പ്രത്യാഘാതങ്ങളും ഇതിനൊരു മകുടോദാഹരണമാണ്‌.

കേരളത്തിലെ മൂന്നോ നാലോ രൂപതകളില്‍ മാത്രം, അതും അവിടുത്തെ മെത്രാന്‍മാരുടെ പിടിവാശിമൂലം, ഭാഗീകമായി നടപ്പാക്കിയിട്ടുള്ള ഒരു പരിഷ്കാരം കേരളത്തിലെ സര്‍വമാന രൂപതകളിലും നിന്നും വന്നു വസിക്കുന്ന അമേരിക്കന്‍ സീറോ മലാബാര്‍ വിശ്വാസികളുടെ തലയില്‍ ഒന്നടങ്കം അടിച്ചെല്‍പ്പിക്കുന്നതിനു എന്ത് ന്യായമാണ് ബിഷപ്‌ അങ്ങാടിയത്തിനു പറയാനുള്ളത്? ഇത് ചങ്ങനാശ്ശേരിയുടെയോ പാലായുടെയോ കീഴിലുള്ള ഒരു രൂപതയല്ല എന്ന് മനസ്സിലാക്കാനുള്ള വിശാല മനസ്കതയില്ലാത്ത ഒരു വ്യക്തിയാണ് നമ്മുടെ മെത്രാന്‍ എന്ന് ഇതില്‍ നിന്നും ഞങ്ങള്‍ അനുമാനിക്കുന്നതില്‍ തെറ്റുണ്ടോ? എന്നിട്ട് തന്റെ പരിഷ്കാരങ്ങള്‍ വിശ്വാസികളുടെ സന്മനസ്സിനെ ഒരു പരിധി വരെ ചൂഷണം ചെയ്ത്‌, അവരെ തെറ്റി ധരിപ്പിച്ചു, അവരോടു കള്ളം പറഞ്ഞു, പിന്‍ വാതിലില്‍ ക്കൂടി ആവിഷ്കരിക്കുന്നത് തന്നെ തന്റെ പരിഷ്കാരങ്ങളുടെ പൊള്ളത്തരമല്ലേ തെളിയിക്കുന്നത്?

ബിഷപ്പിന്റെ "പരിഷ്കാരങ്ങള്‍" എന്ന് മുകളില്‍ പറഞ്ഞത് കൊണ്ട്‌ ഞങ്ങള്‍ ഉദ്ദേശിക്കുന്നത് പുതിയതായി നമ്മള്‍ വാങ്ങുന്ന പള്ളികളില്‍ മാര്‍ തോമ കുരിശും അള്‍ത്താര വിരിയും തൂക്കണമെന്ന അദ്ദേഹത്തിന്റെ ഗൂഡനീക്കങ്ങളെയാണ്. ഞങ്ങളുടെ ഭാഷയില്‍ പരിഷ്കാരങ്ങള്‍, ബിഷപ്പിന്റെയും കൂട്ടരുടെയും ഭാഷയില്‍ ""ആചാരങ്ങള്‍" അല്ലെങ്കില്‍ " പാരമ്പര്യം". അതായത് നമ്മുടെ പഴയ സുറിയാനി, അല്ലെങ്കില്‍ കല്‍ദായ ആചാരങ്ങള്‍, പാരമ്പര്യങ്ങള്‍ എന്നിവ നമ്മുടെ സഭയിലേക്ക് തിരിച്ചു കൊണ്ടുവരുക.

സീറോ മലബാര്‍ സഭയെ പഴയ പേരിലേക്കും പ്രൌഡിയിലേക്കും തിരിച്ചു കൊണ്ടുവരുവാന്‍ മുന്‍ നിരയില്‍ നില്‍ക്കുന്ന ബിഷപ്പിനോടും തന്റെ സഹചാരികളോടും ഞങ്ങളൊന്നു ചോദിച്ചോട്ടെ. നിങ്ങളുടെ കല്‍ദായവല്‍ക്കരണ നീക്കങ്ങളുടെ ആണിക്കല്ലായ രണ്ടു വാക്കുകളാണല്ലോ ആചാരം, പാരമ്പര്യം എന്നിവ. വാക്കുകളുടെ ശരിയായ അര്‍ത്ഥമെന്ത് എന്ന് പാവപ്പെട്ട വിശ്വാസികളെ ഒന്ന് പറഞ്ഞു മനസ്സിലാക്കിതരുക.

ബിഷപ്പിനെപ്പോലെ പരിശുധാത്മാവിന്റെ പ്രത്യേക കൃപ കിട്ടാത്തവനാണ് ഈയുള്ളവന്‍ എങ്കിലും സ്ഥൈര്യലേപനത്തില്‍ കൂടി കിട്ടിയ ചുരുങ്ങിയ വെളിവ് വച്ചു പറഞ്ഞാല്‍, "ആചാരം" എന്നാല്‍ കാലങ്ങളോളം "ആചരിച്ച്" വരുന്ന രീതികള്‍, കാര്യങ്ങള്‍, ചിട്ടകള്‍ എന്നെല്ലാം ഞങ്ങള്‍ മനസ്സിലാക്കുന്നു. അതുപോലെ തന്നെ "പാരമ്പര്യം" എന്നാല്‍ പരമ്പരാഗതമായി കിട്ടിയിരിക്കുന്ന ആചാരമര്യാതകള്‍. വാക്കുകളുടെ ശരിയായ അര്‍ത്ഥം ഇവയെന്നിരിക്കെ ഒരു സുപ്രഭാതത്തില്‍ ഇതാണ് സീറോ മലബാര്‍ സഭയുടെ ആചാരങ്ങള്‍ അല്ലെങ്കില്‍ പാരമ്പര്യം എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞു ചുവന്ന കര്‍ട്ടനും ക്ലാവര്‍ കുരിശും അള്‍ത്താരയില്‍ തൂക്കാന്‍ കൊണ്ടുവന്നാല്‍ അത് കണ്ണുമടച്ചു വിശ്വാസികള്‍ സ്വീകരിക്കണമെന്നാണോ? എവിടെ എങ്കിലും പുതിയ പള്ളി വന്നു കഴിയുമ്പോള്‍ അങ്ങയുടെ തൊപ്പിയില്‍ നിന്നും വലിച്ചു പുറത്തെടുക്കാന്‍ കഴിയുന്ന ഒന്നാണോ ആചാരങ്ങളും പാരമ്പര്യങ്ങളും? കേരളത്തിലെ ബിഷപ്പുമാര്‍ കഴിഞ പല ദശകങ്ങളായി ശ്രമിച്ചിട്ട് പരിഹാരം കാണാന്‍ പറ്റാത്ത് കല്ടായവല്‍ക്കരണ പ്രശ്നം അനായാസേന പരിഹരിക്കാന്‍ കഴിയ തക്ക എന്ത് പ്രത്യേക ദൈവശാസ്ത്ര-തത്വശാസ്ത്ര-വിദ്യാഭ്യാസ യോഗ്യതയാണ് മാര്‍ അങ്ങാടിയത്തിനുള്ളതെന്നറിയാന്‍ രൂപതാംഗങ്ങള്‍ ആഗ്രഹിക്കുന്നു. തിണ്ണ മിടുക്കല്ലാതെ എന്ത് ന്യായീകരനമാണ് ബിഷപ്പിന്റെ ഇത്തരം ഫാസിസ്റ്റ് തോന്ന്യാസത്തിനു ഉള്ളത്? ആയിരക്കണക്കിന് സത്യവിശ്വാസികളുടെ മനസ്സുകളെ വേദനിപ്പിച്ചു അവരുടെ വിശ്വാസത്തെ ചവിട്ടിമെതിച്ച്‌ അങ്ങാടിയത്ത് തന്റെ ചെങ്കോലും കിരീടവും ഉപയോഗിച്ച് നേടുന്ന വിജയം പൊള്ളയായ വിജയം മാത്രമായിരിക്കും. അങ്ങാടിയത്തിന്റെ യുക്തിയനുസരിച്ച്, നസ്രാണി പെണ്ണുങ്ങള്‍ ഉടുക്കേണ്ടത് ചട്ടയും മുണ്ടുമാണ് എന്നദ്ദേഹം അനുശ്വാസിച്ചാല്‍ അതനുസരിക്കാന്‍ കടപ്പെട്ടവരാകുമോ നമ്മുടെ സ്ത്രീ ജനങ്ങള്‍? നമ്മുടെ കുമാരിമാര്‍ ഡാവിണിയും ഹാഫ് സാരിയും ധരിക്കണമെന്ന് അങ്ങാടിയത്ത് ശറിച്ചാല്‍ അതനുസരിക്കാന്‍ ബാധ്യസ്ഥാരാകുമോ നമ്മുടെ യുവതികള്‍?

ബിഷപ്പ് അങ്ങാടിയത്ത് ആധുനിക സീറോമലബാര്‍ സഭക്ക് ഒരപമാനമാണ്. സഭാസ്നേഹികളും ദൈവഭക്തരും അധ്വാനികളും ആയ അമേരിക്കയിലെ സീറോ മലബാര്‍ വിശ്വാസികള്‍ ഇദ്ദേഹത്തെപ്പോലെ പിന്തിരിപ്പനും പിന്നോക്ക ചിന്താഗതിക്കാരനുമായ ഒരു നിഷ്ഗുണനെ തങ്ങളുടെ ബിഷപ്പായി അര്‍ഹിക്കുന്നില്ല.

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THESE ISSUES ?
--------------------------------

Dear friend, I really appreciate if you have good intention and really know what is going on.

All the Dallas folks were one family under Fr. Saji.......
Then a letter came.. whose idea was 'Kaldaaya valkaranam'.....
and that caused split in the community, just like it created split in Kerala's parishes, homes, churches, seminaries and communities...

So the cause of all issue is 'Kaldaya valkaranam', which is unnecessary and unjustified and the way it was implemented is totally unacceptable.

We have always obeyed priests and Bishops.. but only in this case it is our God Jesus, our main catholic faith at stake.
So we had to react.

Unfortunately Bishop seems to be part of the "Kaldaya valkaranam" ...

Please try to understand the bigger picture.

Same issue is going to happen in other parishes also just like it happened in the past.
So If you are a real peace lover, who really care for catholic faith, why don't you tell the folks not to enforce Kaldaayavalkaranam again.
So the church won't be torn apart again.

Isn't it fair...

Anonymous said...

1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, 2 just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph'ilus, 4 that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

Meditation: What would you give to know the fulness of truth? Jesus Christ is the "way, the truth, and the life." Luke's introduction to the gospel is unique among the four gospels. Luke speaks in the firstperson. He addresses his friend, Theophilus, a name which means "beloved of God". In so many words he says, "I am writing to you the most incredible story humankind has known." And this story is utterly believable because it comes from reliable firsthand witnesses of those who knew Jesus Christ personally, heard his teaching, and saw his miracles, death and resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven. The word "gospel" literally means "good news". The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ and the freedom he has won for us through his death and resurrection. The gospel is God's word for us today! It's is a living word that has power to change, transform, and bring freedom and healing to those who accept it as the word of God. Are you hungry for God's word? And do you receive it with expectant faith and trust?

"Lord Jesus, you are the fulfillment of all our hopes and desires. Your Spirit brings us grace, truth, life, and freedom. Fill me with the joy of the gospel and inflame my heart with love and zeal for you and for your kingdom".

Anonymous said...

WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THESE ISSUES ?
--------------------------------

Dear friend, I really appreciate if you have good intention and really know what is going on.

All the Dallas folks were one family under Fr. Saji.......
Then a letter came.. whose idea was 'Kaldaaya valkaranam'.....
and that caused split in the community, just like it created split in Kerala's parishes, homes, churches, seminaries and communities...

So the cause of all issue is 'Kaldaya valkaranam', which is unnecessary and unjustified and the way it was implemented is totally unacceptable.

We have always obeyed priests and Bishops.. but only in this case it is our God Jesus, our main catholic faith at stake.
So we had to react.

Unfortunately Bishop seems to be part of the "Kaldaya valkaranam" ...

Please try to understand the bigger picture.

Same issue is going to happen in other parishes also just like it happened in the past.
So If you are a real peace lover, who really care for catholic faith, why don't you tell the folks not to enforce Kaldaayavalkaranam again.
So the church won't be torn apart again.

Isn't it fair...

Anonymous said...

Kaldayavalkaranam is okey to introduce.But why chicago is forcing us to be on that side?

If they want to do it then let them start a church and give us an option to join it.Then we will see howmany people will go for it.

This is something nonsense they come and do something in Roman catholic church which we canot accept.

Bishop,

Please start a church of your own and take the people who support your Cross...

Anonymous said...

Kladayvalkaranam is not been introduced in our church with its meaning.I think this kind of picky particles introduced in our church just for name sake inorder to support Bishop Pavvathil's idea of being seperate in a big croud.Like he want to be catholic and follow catholic ideas,but at the same time be there with some diffrences.In that run he did not tried to understand it or he did not try to know what he is adopting.So that he is not able to teach the people what he is trying to do.
In the matter of USA what he and his followers are doing is just blindness.This is a church we have people from every where and comfortable the Bishop and his friends forgetting that fact.

Since we have minimum capacity to think,we should understand or we should try to understand what Bishop is saying and is it right or wrong.

We have ask ourself instead of telling we have to obey him.Or atleast we have the right to ask him to teach us what this means.Untill then I dont think I can accept what he says.

Anonymous said...

So we dont understand this.When we buy a church here in Arizona then it will be kaldaya church or roman catholic church?

And we have to pray infront of crusifix or Marthoma cross?

This kaldaya church comes under Roman Catholic?

Anonymous said...

When we buy church,do we really need to write the title only in Bishop's name?

We are going to buy a church soon.But we dont need this problem comes to our church too.

WE are not atall intrested to go out of Roman Catholic church

Anonymous said...

Can we take out that curtain in chicago church?

It looks ugly.

Its our money and dont we have the right?

What you guys say about parking lot selling?

We really need some changes here.

Anonymous said...

Newer Churches if purchased should be in a Common Account alongwith Bishop and the "Church Trust". This would prevent the Hierachy making Unanimous decisions without the Consent of the people who really owns the Church!!.

This would also prevent the sayings like "This is my Church and I will do whatever I want here"

Think about it Guys and get more contrl over your Church , rather than whining after your money is out .....

Anonymous said...

I am surprised out people who could spend their time a lot more useful now have to live with this! At least those communities who have not bought their church yet are lucky! Wealth building is church building?

Make money and you can help the ,millions back home in our poor country. The churches or the political parties of kerala are not going to get you anywhere in this country ...........

Anonymous said...

Can we take out that curtain in SMC church in kansas?

It looks ugly.

Its our money and dont we have the right?

What you guys say about parking lot selling?

We really need some changes here.
Newer Churches if purchased should be in a Common Account alongwith Bishop and the "Church Trust". This would prevent the Hierachy making Unanimous decisions without the Consent of the people who really owns the Church!!.This is what we discuseed in the irving meeting the day before bishop came with achen at the irving meeting.

This would also prevent the sayings like "This is my Church and I will do whatever I want here"

Think about it Guys and get more contrl over your Church , rather than whining after your money is out .....

Anonymous said...

anna orakam ileee.... chumma achene theriparayathe..... sero voice malabar

Anonymous said...

Bishop seems to be part of the "Kaldaya valkaranam" ...
I can say why this is not good


All the Dallas folks were one family under Fr. Saji.......
Then a letter came.. whose idea was 'Kaldaaya valkaranam'.....
and that caused split in the community, just like it created split in Kerala's parishes, homes, churches, seminaries and communities...

So the cause of all issue is 'Kaldaya valkaranam' and Saji Achens secret Ageda, which is unnecessary and unjustified and the way it was implemented is totally unacceptable.

Kladayvalkaranam is not been introduced in our church with its meaning.I think this kind of picky particles introduced in our church just for name sake inorder to support Bishop Pavvathil's idea of being seperate in a big croud.Like he want to be catholic and follow catholic ideas,but at the same time be there with some diffrences.In that run he did not tried to understand it or he did not try to know what he is adopting.So that he is not able to teach the people what he is trying to do.
In the matter of USA what he and his followers are doing is just blindness.This is a church we have people from every where and comfortable the Bishop and his friends forgetting that fact.

Anonymous said...

So you guys saying that Bishop and team is planning a diffrent system with this cross and curtain.They will be with this syromalabar church.But in kerala syromalabar is entirly diffrent and it dosint have this kind of mass and this kind of cross.So what is our identity?
So here in America we will be Kalday and in Kerala we will be Roman catholic?

Its all confucing now.

Anonymous said...

http://stsmcc.blogspot.com/

Looks like this is a good one

Anonymous said...

What is the situation in houston ?

Anonymous said...

thank you for your support
lets move together to keep our faith

syro philabarian
stsmcc.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

Kladayvalkaranam is not been introduced in our church with its meaning.I think this kind of picky particles introduced in our church just for name sake inorder to support Bishop Pavvathil's idea of being seperate in a big croud.Like he want to be catholic and follow catholic ideas,but at the same time be there with some diffrences.In that run he did not tried to understand it or he did not try to know what he is adopting.So that he is not able to teach the people what he is trying to do.
In the matter of USA what he and his followers are doing is just blindness.This is a church we have people from every where and comfortable the Bishop and his friends forgetting that fact.

Since we have minimum capacity to think,we should understand or we should try to understand what Bishop is saying and is it right or wrong.

We have ask ourself instead of telling we have to obey him.Or atleast we have the right to ask him to teach us what this means.Untill then I dont think I can accept what he says.

March 19, 2010 12:00 AM
Delete
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THESE ISSUES ?
--------------------------------

Dear friend, I really appreciate if you have good intention and really know what is going on.

All the Dallas folks were one family under Fr. Saji.......
Then a letter came.. whose idea was 'Kaldaaya valkaranam'.....
and that caused split in the community, just like it created split in Kerala's parishes, homes, churches, seminaries and communities...

So the cause of all issue is 'Kaldaya valkaranam', which is unnecessary and unjustified and the way it was implemented is totally unacceptable.

We have always obeyed priests and Bishops.. but only in this case it is our God Jesus, our main catholic faith at stake.
So we had to react.

Unfortunately Bishop seems to be part of the "Kaldaya valkaranam" ...

Please try to understand the bigger picture.

Same issue is going to happen in other parishes also just like it happened in the past.
So If you are a real peace lover, who really care for catholic faith, why don't you tell the folks not to enforce Kaldaayavalkaranam again.
So the church won't be torn apart again.

Isn't it fair...

Anonymous said...

It is last week of Thomma's administration as Kikaran in Coppell.

What he done in three Months?
What he did not do in three months?

We would like to know.Voice got any plan to bring it out?

Anonymous said...

I think this is good.We need more blogs,so that every one can talk freely.


Bishop,Achan,kaikarans etc...

Every one should understnd that there are places where people can make the comment and it will reach to the public.If you are doing right thing then you dont need to be scared of anything.

If you are telling a lie,then people wont buy it.

So let us welcome new blogs.It will give us new spirit and it will help us do good things in more transparent way.

If you are scared of getting critized then dont try to take any position.Be a member like us.

It is as simple as that.

So let us welcome the new blogs.
Let Bishop know that because of him all this things are happening.
Either he can be proud about what he is doing or he can rethink about his steps.

Anonymous said...

Catholic from Chicago:

This bishop will be the only one in the whole catholic community that the parishioners will understand anything he says.

With all the power started to get in his head Bishop started thinking people are coming to the church because of his personal appeal, not because of Jesus Christ, He decided to even remove the crucified Jesus from the alter.


Hope you got the message!!!!!

Money is the language he understand good,
When they need to buy new churches
Then church needs money
Now they know you
They smile at you
Maybe even talk to you.
Once they get your money oh forget it.
They don’t know you anymore,
Your hard earned money is used to buy the church and it is in the name of Diocese
Now It is their church and their rule that is why they like canon laws.!!!
This is why they want to go back to Eastern Church roots
Too much power to abuse people rights/faith/beliefs
They may want to use again Suriani Language for our Qurbana,
No one will understand anything and no one will question anything
What a worry free, tension free pastoral life!!!!

Anonymous said...

It is last week of Thomma's administration as Kikaran in Coppell.

Hopefully this will be the last time (for Jesus sake)he takes any position in our church.

What he done in three Months?

He really tried to get Fr. Saji removed/transferred from here for his personal dislike of Achen standing in his way of him manipulating/controlling things in the church.

He did make the case for Claver Kurishu for Bishop.

He didn't have any problems all this time at our temporary location Crucifix-only-altar, but somehow he really need to have Claver in the altar at our church.

Does his home has one Claver Kurishu?

Is this Claver kurishu he uses for Evening payers and other prayer occasions at his house?


What he did not do in three months?

He did not make anyone in church happy and relaxed.

Just like the doubtful thoma !!!!

Not sure of anything and want to create problems for all of us, just mental case, may need some help and advice, Has the Claver Cross troubled his mind too??

Anonymous said...

Dear Chicago Syro-Malabarians
There is a purpose for erecting the diocese of Chicago for the Syro-Malabarians. The responsibility of guiding the Syro-Malabar is entrusted with the bishop. The priests are supposed to follow the guidelines of the bishop. If the pastors and priests whether Fr Saji or Fr Kaduppil or anybodyelse are to follow the bishop. If the launchers of numerous blogs were to spend their time to give ecclesial and liturgical formation they would be a blessing to the church.
Emitting poison of division and calling to rebellion against the bishop help no one. The curse of the church is the increasing number of priests who wish to rule the church by dividing the people. What is important is not Marthoma Cross and veil, but the unity of the people. Cross and veil may be introduced when all are prepared. The Syro-Malabarians who were under the Latin Church for over 400 years will take time to come to their senses.